One-shot Mountain Man adventure

[Gaffer]

I found this site that might be of interest to everyone.

http://home.att.net/~mman/index.htm

I think it mostly concentrates on the first part of the 19th century, but it's still good background.

[welsh]

Hey Gaffer-

Hugely helpful site. Thanks! Reading it really got me in the mood for this campaign!

This week I have done some research- mostly of it concerning American fur companies- especially the Rocky Mountain Company. A lot about Joe Walker and Jed Smith. That Jed Smith was one incompetent SOB! Reading about the Rendevous- sounds like the Mountain men really knew a good party!

I will try to scan the stuff off- its a lot, and email it.

If you want a quick look at our location- we're on the top of the Salmon River, to the NW of Pierre's Hole and North of Fort Hall. Much of the traffic running through the Oregon Trail will go through Fort Hall. Our location is a bit beyond that, past the Craters of the Moon region. Again, if you look at the map, it looks like a series of ridges that are like the slashes of a claw. Our group is up at the tip of those claw marks.

There is a photo gallery of modern Challis- http://challischamber.com/gallery.html
But our adventure happens before the town is born. That said, it is the model for this adventure.

[welsh]

A couple of thoughts-

I am currently reading through sections of the 1973 Time-Life collection, The Old West. One volume, the Trailblazers, is especially useful. I plan to purchase the miners, gunfighters and pioneers, indians and a few others of the collection because the series seems a wonderful source of information. Easy to read, illustrated, lovely!

That said- I have been thinking about the problem of blackpowder firearms. The way the rules are established, players have to roll for blackpowder firearms and then role rifle or pistol. To me, that seems unnnecessary. I would think that most of the people involved in this campaign would probably come from occupations where firearms have been used before or where they have learned how to shoot as part of gathering food. That said, its also possible that some characters might never have picked up a firearm in their life.

So I propose a couple of things-
Firearms be collapsed so that pistol and rifle be collapsed into one category. SImply, I suspect the business of firing a musket pistol and a rifle are essentially the same. Shotguns would still be shotguns. Furthermore, some types of character are probably more "skilled" in weapons than others. A city slicker might never have touched a rifle, a naturalist might have some exposure and a mountain man or farm hand might have grown up with guns.

Normally, I like to work with players in the creation of their characters and like to award points based on the character's history, using keeper's discretion to develop the character in a way that is realistic to the character's backstory. I propose that some character classes begin with a bonus to firearms or weapons. For instance, a person who is a mountain man should probably receive a bonus of skill points that they can put to knife, tomahawk, or firearms as they might wish.

So Mountainman- would start with a small bonus to blackpowder firearms- (20%) as well as for knife and tomahawk- and then would get, say 100 points that could be distribute between the skills, up to 90 points to a skill. You could still have a mountainman who has awful musket skills, but is deadly with a tomahawk.

When using firearms, one would roll twice, but characters who have high skill points would probably receive little penalty, while those with few will have a harder time firing. First roll would be if the gun works, second would be that the gun actually hits what is aimed at.

When we advance to the 1870s campaign, and cartridge guns are more available, then most characters that would have firearms as their skill would start with a small blackpowder firearms bonus.

Other thoughts- I am thinking of adopting some of the character classes and skills from the Dark Ages character sheet to create more classes for characters who might want to play Indians, but will need to explore that.

I think Gaffer asked a question about scientists- in response. One could play a naturalists. Based on my readings, quite a few would be scientists ventured out west to collect samples. Often these fellows were confused by Indians as mountain men. They seemed to be a very brave and diverse crowd and showed tremendous fortitude and courage. SO I think we could develop such a character based on the 1920s model.

So- I am thinking about how to adapt some of the classic character types to our Mountain Man/Old West campaign. Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.

[Laraqua]

If you haven't already, try to get your hands on GURPS Old West. From what I've heard, it possesses a startling level of information.

[Mi-Go Agent]

A city slicker might never have touched a rifle, a naturalist might have some exposure and a mountain man or farm hand might have grown up with guns.

Given the whole "shoot/trap it, then stuff/draw it" research method of period naturalists, I wouldn't be surprised if more than a few were crack shots.

[welsh]

Hey Laragua- Actually I have it. Once I finish reading up on the Trailblazers I plan to scan parts of that and send it to you. I do have the GURPS Old West, which is by far superior to the Wild West Cthulhu. There is a lot there on Indians and Indian magic, but I would like to get a bit more detail on Indians before getting further on that. But I agree- its really a wonderful book.

Mi-Go- I agree, but I wonder how much of that has to do with career choices. Teddy Roosevelt, for instance, called himself a naturalist, but really he just loved to hunt. As a hunter I could see him getting a bonus to shoot.

Ok, some thoughts on New Skills for Wild West Cthulhu-

Skills-
Blackpowder weapons- I would like to amend depending on character professions.
I am fine with
Demolitions (Miners would get a bonus)
Forage- (More to characters that are mountain men or scouts)
Gamble- (Gamblers get a bonus)
Homesteading- Seems fine- (Homesteaders would get some bonus)
Insight- Ok. I actually kind of like that one.
Lasso- Bonus for cowboys
Legends and Lore- This one is kind of interesting. We need to think of how that would apply.
Pickpocket- fine.

Quick Draw- WWC emphasizes this but then, as pointed out above, there is a strong Spaghetti Western sense to WWC. I am not against this, but I don't really see much use if this game doesn't involve that much "quick drawing". How do you guys feel about the way Quick Draw is set up. Dex + Pistol/10 + Quick Draw/10 + 1d10? I am thinking about ((2)Dex + 20 + Quick Draw + 1d10)/ 5 and then compare on the resistance roll.

Scripture, Seduce - seem fine.
Sixth Sense- I kind of like that.
Spit? I don't see the point of it.
Teamster is fine
Tether? - I don't see much of a point to that either.

Tipple- Not much use but again, I would see this initially as a consequence of a factor of Constitution and Intelligence, but then, the more you drink the more this becomes degraded. Let's say that a person drinks- a lot. I have seen big guys get drunk fast and small women hold their liquor. But what if you get a guy drunk and then get him into a shoot out- then his other skills, his quick draw and his aim, would degrade. Your thoughts?
Trap- I am fine with that, bonuses given on skills.

Fanning rules seem fine
Shooting from horseback- I am fine with that.

Black Powder weapons, I have mentioned already.

Grit- I am not sure how useful that is as a skill. But as a consequence of Con, perhaps. How does one improve one's Grit skill?

Which leads us to combat-
As for the serious vs mortal wounds business- I am actually reluctant to do that. What I would rather do is roll a luck for the character to figure out if a player has, at 0 hp, been killed. I would rather work it so that when hp is less than or equal to 3 they roll Con to see if they remain conscious. At 0 they risking being unconscious. However, they will continue to bleed out until reaching -10, they are dead. If we are to incorporate grit (Con * 2) then the person rolls Grit at -1 to see if they can still maintain consciousness- enough to either fight or give themselves first aid.

The Hit location table- I am kind of happy with this. I incorporate a variation in Lure and we've done it on Zombie Apoc. So I am fine with that. I would think 6 points of damage to a body part would count as a severe wound.

Backgrounds- Ok, what do you think of this? I am a bit reluctant to link this to skill points and I usually am reluctant to give deductions to primary skills. That said, I could understand why a Chinaman might have -10 credit rating or an immigrant has -1 Con?

Your thoughts?

Magic- to be honest, I like a lot of the magic spells from Dark Ages. Some, of course, don't fit, and I think we can develop a few others. I really appreciate your advice on these issues.

Occupations-
I admit that I like characters with multiple backgrounds. For instance, Kit Carsons is a mountainman, than a scout, than a soldier. So I don't mind characters developing their backgrounds. For our adventure, I could see a person who is a Indian working as a military scout, or a half-breed Indian who is also a bandit or a miner. I prefer interesting characters of diverse backgrounds.

Although some of the magic ideas of Dark Ages could be adapted, the character occupations don't work very well either for the settlers or the Indians. The occupations for Wild West are generally ok in giving direction, but I think more could be done. For example, I would think that a cowboy should have a bonus at lasso and teamster, A brave should start with the basic bonuses of an Indian background, a bounty hunter should have better track skills.

That said,

]Occupations- Generally speaking I like a lot of what the 1920s Companion points out. Most of the occupations, however, don't fit and in some cases, characters may be multi-occupational. For instance I had planned on have two soldiers at the fort- both Cavalry soldiers that were there to survey. Such a character would be part soldier, part surveyor and part explorer. Some of the naturalists may be artists, capable of drawing animals they can't capture of new plant species, so these characters might require some initial skill, as well as being explorer and field researcher. I think this idea is consistent with the West, where individuals would often move between careers. Buffalo Bill Cody- gunman, performer, scout. This is especially true of folks who have moved from the East.

Anyway, I need to figure out how to balance backgrounds and occupations so that they make better sense. This would include giving appropriate skill bonuses to characters based on their occupations. For instance, a young bounty hunter might have little exposure to death and dieing, but given most of those characters would probably have gone through a prior occupation (soldiers or lawmen). Characters who have multiple occupations must have have spent some time in those occupations to get the skill bonuses.

Overall, I find that the WWC occupations are largely derivative of the 1920s companion book, but without the detail. I'd like your thoughts on that. My instinct is to be generous, and I might be too generous on giving out skill bonuses. So I really appreciate your consideration on this.

Primary SKills-
That said, I would also consider the following with regard to primary skills. We usually preference Education over Intelligence. But I think that's pretty much a 1920s and modern idea, and not an appropriate one for the 1850s- when a lot of folks are self-taught and we have a lot of illiteracy. Modern science is still young. So I suggest we reverse the Education vs Intelligence bonuses. Instead of giving Education * 20, we should give Intelligence * 20. Characters can still pursue advanced degrees, but the value added is lower. Also, instead of giving age the benefit of education, we should give age the betterment of intelligence.

Is this too drastic a change. Your thoughts?

[Mi-Go Agent]

I don't think the Quick Draw rules are necessary. Their whole point is to dramatize a single shot, but no matter how many dice you role, drama comes from plot, RP, and good Keeper descriptions. I also agree that the whole serious/mortal wounds business is silly. I would not be upset if you completely disposed of it.

As for Homesteading, perhaps it could work a little like "Knowledge: Homesteading"? So if you had a high Homesteading score, you could see why one piece of land or equipment would be better than another for homesteading, and possibly what seems seriously wrong about that one homestead in the unlikely location.

For example:
Naturalist: "This homestead looks fine, lets just move on."
Homesteader: "Are you kidding? Where is the root cellar? Why is the paddock so small? How could they have stored enough food? What did they eat in the winter? We have to investigate!"

[Laraqua]

Int for Edu is just fine. Makes a lot of sense.

[Gaffer]

I just read the last several posts very quickly, trying to catch up with the discussion. Here's a few ideas that are kind of random.

I agree with Mi-Go that blackpowder weapons are all about dramatizing the single shot. I think even the pepperbox weapons (and I beleieve there were rifle versions) have to have the cylinder manually rotated -- unless they fire off all barrels simultaneously, like a duckfoot. Also, re-loading is tedious for the multi-barrel/chamber firearms. I also dislike the idea of two rolls for each shot, one apparently reflecting whether I properly loaded my weapon and one for whether I properly aimed it.

A painter/artist character like George Catlin, would be possible. Any gentleman would probably be travelling with a manservant.

Another female character type could be the captive white woman. Although often degraded, there's no reason why such a woman couldn't have become powerful/respected. Also, white men or black men may have been adopted into a tribe.

If we are talking about the 1850s, I doubt this area saw many cowboys. The big Montana/Wyoming ranches were mostly post-Civil War, I think.

I'd see Grit as an offshoot of POW rather than CON -- a measure of determination or willpower, though I think too much may be POW-driven already with SAN and Luck.

I'd separate out Legends from Lore with Legends being about superstition and belief and Lore being about generalized practical knowledge like making fire, tethering horses (unless that's part of Ride), packing horses, finding water, building shelter, preserving meat, etc. Or maybe that would be EDU.

Finally, throwing knives and tomahawks would be a big skill for mountain men. The Rendezvous included competitions in those skills, IIRC.

[welsh]

I agree with Mi-Go that blackpowder weapons are all about dramatizing the single shot. I think even the pepperbox weapons (and I beleieve there were rifle versions) have to have the cylinder manually rotated -- unless they fire off all barrels simultaneously, like a duckfoot. Also, re-loading is tedious for the multi-barrel/chamber firearms. I also dislike the idea of two rolls for each shot, one apparently reflecting whether I properly loaded my weapon and one for whether I properly aimed it.

To be honest, I am not crazy about the black powder weapons rules either, but I can see why there are two issues- (1) Did you load correctly, and (2) did you hit. I am not fond of that, but I think the best way might be to bonus certain professions with skill points and combine pistol and rifle into one roll- say start with a based of 30 for both. As I see it, you have two problems. With a blackpowder weapon, you risk a bad load that has greater catastrophic consequences, but you can also manipulate the power of the shot. (2) Whether you load or hit are really two different questions. SO you have to consider the higher potential of misfire or malfunction. How to do it- that's a good question.

It seems to me that Wild West Cthulhu was made with cartridge weapons in mind and with Black Powder weapons for those who want something more interesting. But for us, Black Powder weapons is all you got. Also, while rifles were often single shot, most of the rifles we are talking about are really more sophisticated muskets. Those are single shots even if the Navy Colt fires 6. The danger of misfire, as the knuckleduster books point out, is that all the cylinders can go off in one burst. That's got to hurt.

My gut feelings is to get rid of the difference between pistols and rifles- since the mechanism is essentially the same and combine into one firearms skill. But I am still not sure about this. Alternatively, we can expand the misfire rules. and then factor out how the misfire applies to those with skill. Not sure. This is a tricky issue.

A painter/artist character like George Catlin, would be possible. Any gentleman would probably be travelling with a manservant.

That's a good point. The impression I get is that artist/painters usually traveled with expeditions or fur trapping companies, but gentleman (and there were a few aristocrats) would bring a small entourage with them and could subsidize the travel of an artist.

The Army Corp of Topographicers is another potential source for player characters. I had been planning on a military officer at the camp who is mapping the region-
http://www.topogs.org/History.htm

Another female character type could be the captive white woman. Although often degraded, there's no reason why such a woman couldn't have become powerful/respected. Also, white men or black men may have been adopted into a tribe.

To be honest, I would be a bit worried about this turning into a bondage story if we went in that direction- and I am not sure if anyone really wants to play a victim. But there are settlers in the region in 1850s, some heading over to Oregon.
http://www.endoftheoregontrail.org/women.html

No reason to think a woman might not have jumped the trail or gotten off the trail and is trying to find someplace more civilized. Its also possible that some explorer or mountain man is traveling with a tough spouse.

If we are talking about the 1850s, I doubt this area saw many cowboys. The big Montana/Wyoming ranches were mostly post-Civil War, I think.

That's generally correct. Idaho territory is still sparsely traveled. Some local ranches emerge, but mostly to provide food to locals. Mining becomes the big industry after the Civil War, and there are range wars between shepherds and cattlemen, but that's not for a while yet.

That said pack horses and mules are valuable.

I'd see Grit as an offshoot of POW rather than CON -- a measure of determination or willpower, though I think too much may be POW-driven already with SAN and Luck.

I think of POW as being basically about human will power rather than about personal strength. But I agree, it could be a combination of both. POW + CON = Grit? Not a bad idead.

I'd separate out Legends from Lore with Legends being about superstition and belief and Lore being about generalized practical knowledge like making fire, tethering horses (unless that's part of Ride), packing horses, finding water, building shelter, preserving meat, etc. Or maybe that would be EDU.

Actually I like Legends and Lore being about local gossip and stories. This is a person who knows stories and potentially is a story teller. Practical knowledge- we have to think about the profession. Homesteaders would, as mentioned above, be able to figure out where a good farm might be, miners would know how to construct a mine or pan for gold. Teamster can work with horses or work a mule train.

Finding water would be forage. I would give building a shelter or preserving meat also be forage.

Finally, throwing knives and tomahawks would be a big skill for mountain men. The Rendezvous included competitions in those skills, IIRC.

I agree. Assuming these are experienced mountain men, they should have a skill bonus. Technically the Rendezvous ends before our story, but that's a historical note that we can be rid of. The Rendezvous pretty much dies out because the fur trade dies out. But I think there is a precedent.

I would also think that tomahawk skill would include both throwing and fighting.

I think we can combine tether and lasso to "Rope work." An essential skill for cowboys- who would start with a fair bonus, and optional for most others.

Anyway, I appreciate this conversation and sorry for the delay in this. I got a pile of real life grading to deal with and then travel, things are crazy in RL. But I think its a good idea to discuss these rules and come up with useful modifications before moving forward. While some of the expansions of Cthulhu outside the classic realm have opened up new opportunities, too often the new character sheets don't make a lot of sense to me.

More to come.

[Mi-Go Agent]

Two things:

1. Would ex-sailors also get skills in rope work?
2. I used to know someone who wanted to write a series about werewolf "lone wolf" women pioneers/cowpeople. I don't know what happened to her.

[welsh]

I would that that rope work would probably be something that most sailors of the time would have to master. Considering that this is the age of sail, that skill as well as Navigate (sea), Operate Machinery (Vessel), etc.

Werewolves on the frontier... ohh... I like that.

[Mi-Go Agent]

I think I just hit on my character background.

The thing is, rope work to a sailor would have a very different meaning then rope work to a cowpuncher. I can't imagine a sailor knowing how to lasso a longhorn, nor can I imagine a Mountain Man able to work in the riggings.

[welsh]

I would agree, but both of them are used to knots, to tether, etc. Also, there might be some lasso experience, if only its a matter of throwing lines and small boat work, so I wouldn't disparage a sailer..

Interesting to note, that it seems that among the fur traders of the Northwest were Hawaiians. I found this rather puzzling until I realized that vessels might stop in Hawaii for cargo, supplies, trade, and that they would hire locals to assist in the handling of the boat. Sea life was a hazardous business and crew would need to be replaced. Hawaiians could be good sailors and vessels would frequently hire crews. This is not unusual. European vessels would often hire African or Indian crewmen who had experience at sea, and pirates often recruited their crews from Newfoundland. So imagine a Hawaiian Mountain man in Oregon! Not so far off really, as there were Hawaiians working along the coast of Oregon and Washington even before the time of our adventure!

[welsh]

Sorry folks, I am have been real busy in RL. I hope to send you all some nice goodies and do some work on character classes and professions, but I travel on the 13th of December and won't be back till Jan. I hope to have this kick started by Feb. Again, apologies for the delay.

[welsh]

To keep the story tight, I am considering pre-gens. Is that alright.

Further reading on gunfighting, I figure quick draw is a skill that needs to be cultivated (much like juggling), so I am fine with that as a seperate skill. Still thinking about the black powder weapons skill. Problem of players drawing their own cartridges means that this could go badly.

Rope and lasso are different skills, perhaps keep them like that.

Still considering this, but hope to get this going soon.

[Mi-Go Agent]

Pre-gens are fine with me. I'm just bumping this post up to see how long it will be.

[welsh]

Folks who were interested in this before- We should be kicking this into gear in a couple of weeks.

For more-
http://www.callofcthulhu.org.uk/viewtop ... =39&t=1918